Talk:Royal Navy of Stormwind
I have to say, this page is really great, I like the fleshing out of naval history (given that Blizzard doesn't really care about that side of lore, apparantly). The only thing I wanted to mention was a few things about the gunpowder: The Dwarves inventing gunpowder is actual canon, although (according to the non-canon RPG) it was specifically a few decades after the War of Three Hammers. However, the only canon source that mentions the Dwarven invention of gunpowder is Night of the Dragon, which says that the descendants of the Dark Iron invaders of Grim Batol carry dwarven crossbows, as rifles weren't invented until after the War. Given that in real world history the invention of cannons took place a while before the invention of rifles (and muskets, considering Blizzard might have meant all guns as they just call all dwarven gunners "riflemen") it would be rather easy to say that the wars with the Dwarvens took place only when cannons (and hand-cannons) had been invented, with hand-held muskets and rifles only appearing after the War of Three Hammers. Other than that, I feel the page is really good and would actually like to use some of this when I write up the history for my Greyhallow Fleet page, if that's fine with you. Vannesira Smith (talk) 07:07, February 10, 2016 (UTC) Thanks Vannesira. EDIT: I forgot to mention at first that by all means, feel free to make use of it. The offer lost to the comments purge is still there, too, if you'd like any recommendations for reading etc. Regarding gunpowder, it isn't actually mentioned in Night of the Dragon. That's wowpedia synthesizing several sources together to reach conclusions that, while valid if one accepts the RPG, swiftly fall apart if we don't. Canonically, we don't know who invented gunpowder (though dwarves are a damn good bet because, well, they're dwarves. Same with Goblins, I suppose, or potentially the Highborne for curiosities and fireworks etc.) or when it first came on the scene. NotD also makes no reference to when rifles came into use, and as we can see today, crossbows and longbows are in common use even with lever action repeaters and multi-chambered firearms so the use of crossbows at the time (especially peculiar ones like those used by the Skardyn, which is not a crossbow per se so much as a launcher for small spiked stone balls) is not particularly indicative of when gunpowder came into common use. I appreciate the comment, though I will continue to skew towards a model where gunpowder appeared in fairly primitive form quite a bit earlier than the War of Three Hammers. Arathorstories (talk) 07:25, February 10, 2016 (UTC) That makes sense, Wowpedia's sources were a bit confusing so thanks for clearing that up. And Dwarves are probably the best bet for gunpowder invention, Goblins would be likely to not note anything down and blow up before telling anyone the secret (and notes, if they did write anything down). Pandaren definately developed some form of explosive independantly, and a Night Elf uses the term "cannon" in a metaphor in a vision from the WotA shown in Legion, but that may have been a magical "cannon". An idea I had for a possible way the dwarves came up with Gunpowder, if you want to write more on the invention and need an idea, was that it could be related to some sort of titan construct/blueprint (from Uldaman). This would give an explanation for the independant Pandaren/Mogu invention (their blueprint coming from Mogu'shan Vaults), the Highborne reference, the Flame Leviathan in Ulduar and the fact that the Legion has Fel-based explosives. Personally I would find it nice if Blizzard had tied Pandaren gunpowder invention with Dwarven gunpowder invention (like real history), but the mist probably stopped that. And thanks for the recommended reading (I managed to see it in Edits after Wikia stuffed up with the comment disabling), I've had a look around for The Safeguard of the Sea, it sounds interesting. Vannesira Smith (talk) 07:50, February 10, 2016 (UTC) It's available for kindle for about ten dollars, IIRC, or it was when I got it. The sequel is also worth a read, but for your idea of ships combining sail and oars, TSotS is a lot more relevant. I personally take the view that gunpowder developed independently in different areas at different times - usually with magical assistance or as a shamanic reagent - but there's definitely no reason there couldn't be a unified source or a Pandaren connection. The interesting thing about the Mists is that they don't actually stop transit through them completely dead, so not only could Wandering Isle Pandaren have spread the secret, but there's nothing stopping other Pandaren leaving other than cultural attitudes and choppy waters. If we actually look at the lore, there was no magical barrier preventing Shen Zin Shu from returning as he pleased by his homing instinct, so while the mists pose a significant burden, there remains a possibility of non-Isle Pandaren traders and explorers if we take the idea that all continental Pandaren being content with staying home as not an actual universal truism for them, but an expression of a philosophical ideal (which is in keeping with the Asian theme of Pandaria, as many sayings and statements of 'fact' through Chinese and Japanese history were not fact, but ideals recorded as fact.) There was also the Pearl of Pandaria, which permitted its owner to find Pandaria despite the mists and travelled quite a ways. There is no reason other such artifacts could not exist. Blizzard likes to make it seem hard and fast that such-and-such was inaccessible, but every time, they also include evidence, circumstantial or direct, to suggest it isn't that simple. Those small areas of obscurity or of gray are where we can find fertile ground for storyline and fanon. Arathorstories (talk) 08:19, February 10, 2016 (UTC) Off topic but there is a reference to a lack of guns by way of the Skardyn's use of the dwyar'hun, a weapon from the war of three hammers that was like a crossbow that fired small metal stars. It doesn't say anything about gunpowder but it does mention the weapon was abandoned so it could probably be assumed, though there isn't anything concrete.-- User:Berenal Grayblade (talk) 14:16, February 10, 2016 (UTC) The use of the dwyar'hun - which fires spiked metal balls, not metal stars, as I said and per page 219 - in no way indicates that gunpowder was not in use contemporaneously with it. No reference is made to it being replaced by firearms on any kind of systematic level. We also see crossbows in modern use by Dwarven forces of all three clans in World of Warcraft. Arathorstories (talk) 14:49, February 10, 2016 (UTC) Hrm.... Very interestig page! Certainly good to see the sheer amount of history on this page (Writing history has never been the GAN's strongest point). However, I'm curious as to how you address the other navies? You believe they have a separation of some kind right? I'm just curious as to what you say when see suggestions that there MAY be a unified navy (E.G the 'Alliance Sailors' from the gunship during the Panda questline than 'Stormwind Navy Sailors', or that there appears to be just one Grand Admiral/main naval leader in game. I could add many more examplws). Btw, I'm not shooting this down; I'm just wanting to see your thoughts. Admiral Ranets Daggerfang (talk) 05:26, February 11, 2016 (UTC) To be blunt, I view them as completely seperate entities except where certain ships are given to multinational entities like the 7th Legion. I have no need nor any desire to lump all the navies into one grand whatever, and feel it is actually limiting thematically and in storyline and roleplaying opportunities to do so. Where the Grand Admiral is the Grand Admiral of the Alliance rather than just of Stormwind, that does not mean that all the navies must be one cohesive whole but rather that she provides the broad strategic directives of the war at sea to the other sovereign navies who then interpret and execute those directives through their own leadership structures. In the system I champion, she in fact does that even within the confines of the Royal Navy itself, as only the Royal Fleet is under her direct tactical command while the remainder are issued broad goals and directives and given leeway to do as they see fit. This creates more opportunities for stories and IC conflicts between navies from different nations and even fleet commanders within those same navies who, while working towards the same goal, may find themselves working in opposite directions, with different tactics, strategies, and ideologies of war. Between this and the lack of any credible evidence for anything approaching universally combined navies and armies - note that usually when Alliance is stated it is for contrast with Horde or where there are multiple Alliance factions working side-by-side in operation as part of a broader operation, and that calling troops of an alliance simply by the name of that alliance is not exactly unheard of in real life - I favour a seperate and distinct model. It's just more interesting and has more opportunities, at least to my sight. Arathorstories (talk) 05:50, February 11, 2016 (UTC)